The Scrimba Podcast

Meet Ryan Talbert 🇺🇸! Ryan studied entrepreneurship and had an idea for an app. To build it, he hired a developer who scammed him and used his server for phishing! But that was also the best thing that could've happened: Today, Ryan is a developer, passionate about JavaScript, and helping other career switchers break into tech. Oh, and he wrote a book!

In this episode, Ryan shares his story and many things he's learned along the way. Ryan will teach you how to break the process of applying and interviewing for a job into smaller steps and improve them one by one - and some of his strategies are pretty novel, even after more than 160 episodes of our podcast! Ryan's approach divides the interview process into four stages. This way, you can pinpoint the exact part of it where you fail, and work on it without distractions.

You will also learn how to make learning to code more manageable and rewarding for yourself - because the more you win, the more you will win. Ryan also describes how he got his first coding job: he told the hiring manager the company wasn't right for him, but they wanted to hire him anyway, and he eventually agreed - because he had a good reason to do so.

🔗 Connect with Ryan
⏰ Timestamps
  • You can come into tech from any career (01:36)
  • Ryan studied entrepreneurship and wanted to build an app (03:56)
  • How Ryan lost all his savings and got a cease and desist letter from the country of Germany (05:46)
  • Getting scammed was a good thing, in the end (08:57)
  • Community Break with Jan the Producer (10:13)
  • How Ryan learned to code (11:40)
  • Becoming a coder instead of entrepreneur (14:41)
  • Job hunt in 2017 vs job hunt in 2024 (20:33)
  • Linear progression of a job interview (22:22)
  • Write a good resume (or pay somebody to do that), and get it in front of humans (23:37)
  • What to do when they ask you to tell them abour yourself? (25:39)
  • Practice coding problems (26:49)
  • Climbing the interview hill (27:32)
  • We're bad at multitasking (28:56)
  • Anything is a skill! (30:42)
  • You need to keep winning and build momentum (35:15)
  • Set achievable goals (40:01)

🧰 Resources Mentioned
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Creators & Guests

Host
Alex Booker
Host of The Scrimba Podcast
Producer
Jan Gregory Arsenovic
Producer of the Scrimba Podcast

What is The Scrimba Podcast?

Learn from inspiring developers about how they found meaningful and fulfilling work that that also pays them well. On The Scrimba Podcast, you'll hear motivational advice and job-hunting strategies from developers who've been exactly where you are now. We talk to developers about their challenges, learnings, and switching industries in the hopes of inspiring YOU. This is the podcast that provides the inspiration, tools, and roadmaps to move from where you are to work that matters to you and uniquely fits your strengths and talents.

Ryan Talbert (00:00):
You want to structure your life in a way that you feel like you're winning and you feel like you're growing and coding can be a hard journey for a lot of people. How can you make it a win realistically for the skill level you're at? So if you're just getting started and you want to create the next big app that makes you a billionaire, 99.999% of the time, you're not going to win and you're not going to be happy.

Alex Booker (00:29):
That was Ryan Talbert, software engineer and coding career mentor focused on teaching career switches, how to stand out with JavaScript. I wanted to talk with Ryan, because he's amassed more than 30,000 followers on LinkedIn by sharing advice and stimulating conversation about how to land your first role in tech.

(00:48):
Ryan also frequently hosts mental calls as well as AMAs with the community. The Scrimba podcast is all about bringing you a fresh perspective and new ideas to help you land your dream role in tech. While lots of Ryan's advice about cultivating a successful mindset during times of uncertainty is absolutely measured and verified, some of his techniques that get attention from companies I've genuinely never heard before.

(01:14):
I'm your host Alex Booker and you're listening to the Scrimba Podcast. This is a weekly show where I interview recently hired developers as well as career experts like Ryan to help you learn to code and land your dream role in tech. Ryan, welcome to the show. Let's get into it.

Ryan Talbert (01:31):
I think there's a big mental divide in this industry for people. You're either a computer science major and you've done it throughout college and university and you grew up with a computer in your hand or you're not. And the people that are not can be kind of intimidated to jump into this field. One of the things that always makes me laugh, knowing what I know now, talking to people who are getting into coding is like, "I don't know math," and I was like, "Well, you're in luck. I haven't had to really use math my entire career so far."

(02:05):
It's a lot of dealing with these preconceived notions of what people think coding is and how difficult it is to get started, and you definitely don't have to go to university. I truly believe you can come from any career path and do it. I've worked with a ton of people. They were working in heating and cooling or they worked in human resources or they worked as a barista at Starbucks. You can come from any career is what I believe, and that's who I am. I'm not from this world, so I just broke into it.

Alex Booker (02:33):
Let's talk about that a little bit. Was it always obvious to you that you would become a professional developer one day or is it something you stumbled into?

Ryan Talbert (02:40):
I really stumbled into it. I went to college at St. Louis University out here in Missouri stateside, and I went to business school, because I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, so that seemed like a good spot to spend a couple of years.

Alex Booker (02:57):
Pretty standard reasoning. Yeah.

Ryan Talbert (02:59):
I didn't even own a laptop until after I graduated college. I was like pencil and paper the whole way through. So this is not the field I thought I'd end up in, but I had a buddy of mine I used to sit next to I think in an accounting class, and we graduated. We got our degree and six months later he became a developer out of nowhere working for a company. And I was, at the time, I think I was sitting at a book publishing company just punching numbers in an Excel spreadsheet and I was like, "Man, I can't do this for another 40, 50 years." So I reached out to him and I'm like, "How'd you become a developer? You never even mentioned it." He's like, "Oh, I just took this course on Udemy and started working towards it." And I'm like, "Well, send me the course." And luckily the course was on sale I think for $10 and the rest is history, man.

Alex Booker (03:51):
You were doubling with coding like a hobby or you were hard set on making this your new career?

Ryan Talbert (03:56):
To actually get into that, I have to take you on a little bit of a wild journey because it's not as clear cut as that. I actually went to school for entrepreneurship, so I was the first person in the unemployment line basically, because nobody really wants to hire an entrepreneur.

(04:12):
And through my entrepreneurship class to graduate, we had to write a business plan for a business that we came up with. And my idea was this app called Herd Map and it was going to be a heat map of the more people that were using the app in a certain place the area would become redder and redder and redder to kind of plan your night out, maybe do bar hopping. Just have a fun night out, because when you go to a new city, you look up 10 things to do in St. Louis or 10 things to do in New York, and it's the same stuff every time. I was like, how could I get somebody to live a local basically or go places where people are?

Alex Booker (04:52):
What year was this?

Ryan Talbert (04:53):
I think I came up with that in 2015, 2016.

Alex Booker (04:56):
I know there's a few apps that do something like that today, but back then that sounds like around the time it would've been a very original idea. That must've been exciting.

Ryan Talbert (05:03):
Yeah. It was really cool to devise this idea and my professor liked it a lot. Everybody I pitched it to liked it a lot, so I was like, "Okay, I'm going to build this app," but I had no idea how to code. Basically I didn't even know how to turn a computer on. So I started looking around who could build this app for me and I went to Upwork, I think it had a different name back then. I paid this guy 500 bucks to build this MVP. It was totally garbage, but I was hooked. Once I got a live app back that I got to design, I was like, "Man, this is pretty addicting. This is pretty cool." I got that MVP and I was like, "I want to make this better. I need to find somebody that can work on this app more long-term." And I started looking around and at the time I was, I think working at Home Depot, I was pushing shopping carts, being a cashier, and I worked with this guy that he said his nephew was a real whiz at the computers.

(06:05):
So I reached out to him and I was like, "Hey, can you build this app for me?" I met him in America. We started working on it and it was taking a while. I was funneling him money and he had me buy this server out in Germany that was pretty expensive, but it was an on-prem server. Well, come to find out when I was building this app and funneling him all this money, he actually lived in Pakistan. He was just visiting for the summer. So one year into development, two years into development, this app was sort of getting done, but there was always a story for why it wasn't getting done. I had this server going that I was spending money on monthly. Through the end of it, I gave them my entire life savings to build this app. One day I go and check my mailbox and I actually get a letter. It was a cease and desist letter from the country of Germany saying my server basically had hundreds of different phishing websites tied to it and credit card scamming and all kinds of different stuff.

Alex Booker (07:08):
You're kidding.

Ryan Talbert (07:10):
The guy was just scamming me left and right and I, like an idiot, kept paying him.

Alex Booker (07:15):
Wait, so you were paying the bill for this dedicated server, but it sounds like they were using that server for other illicit websites and activities?

Ryan Talbert (07:24):
Yeah, man, my heart was pretty broken at that point. I had spent my entire life savings, which at the time I was 22, 23, I had saved up like $20,000 or something living at home. It's not the end of the world, but at the time it was like everything to me. So I immediately shut down the server, I kind of killed the app, I cut off contact with him and I tried to get it switched over to the cloud through a guy I met through Upwork and kind of take it from there. But at that point I was already down so much money, my pride was hurting pretty bad. I went through a bit of a depressive episode. It was kind of one of the worst moments of my life, because I put so much into this business I felt like. And I remember just sitting one day kind of thinking about it and I was like, "If I learn to code, I'll never have to hire a middle man again."

(08:18):
I had a really negative image of coders at that point in my life too, because I wasn't very tech-savvy. That was the first one I'd really dealt with and I was kind of like, "Man, maybe they're all kind of scammy." But I decided if I really learned this, I could build my own stuff, which is, one, super cool for entrepreneurship, and two, I could save a lot of money and potentially not get scammed. So that really, combined with my buddy learning to code and him sending me that course, that was my whole trajectory for learning to code and switching careers.

Alex Booker (08:51):
That was like your catalyst.

Ryan Talbert (08:52):
Yeah, it did suck, but it was one of the best things that could have happened in my life. Sometimes you can't see it when you're going through it, but you never know what's going to lead you to what. And that was one of those times if I hadn't gotten scammed, I don't think I would've been here and I don't think I would've been enjoying my life as much as I am right now, getting to do all the cool stuff I get to do. There's this old story of a zen master. There's a boy and on his 16th birthday, the boy gets a horse as a present and all the people in the village say, "Oh, how wonderful." And the zen master says, "We'll see." And then one day the boy is riding and gets thrown off the horse and hurts his leg and he's no longer able to walk and all the villagers are like, "How terrible." But the zen master says, "We'll see."

(09:38):
And then some time passes and the village goes to war. All the other young men get sent off to fight, but this boy can't fight because his legs mess up and all the villagers say, "How wonderful." And the zen master says, "We'll see." So that's kind of how I live my life. Yeah, it sucked, but we'll see what comes from it. That was one of the worst moments of my life at the time, but probably the most explosive just chip on my shoulder active growth mode thing that could have happened to me. So I know it's weird, but I actually thank that guy for what he did to me

Jan Arsenovic (10:13):
Coming up, how to better understand the structure of a hiring process.

Ryan Talbert (10:17):
I'd ask you, Alex, do you think you're a good driver?

Alex Booker (10:20):
I'm a great driver.

Ryan Talbert (10:21):
Nobody ever thinks they're a bad driver. Crashes happen all the time.

Jan Arsenovic (10:26):
But first, hello, I'm Jan, the producer, and this is that part of the show where I go through your social media posts mentioning our podcast and give some of you shout-outs. Here's a comment from YouTube from our interview with Shaundai Person saying, "Absolutely amazing. As a newbie in programming, I've learned a lot from this podcast. Another person said, "One of my favorite interviews, love her."

(10:49):
And over on Twitter, Roxanna Beck also posted about that episode saying, "Just listening to Shaundai on the Scrimba podcast. Thank you for such wonderful insight and advice. I need to work on selling myself, but in the legal hire me as a developer way. Hashtag career switcher, hashtag moms who code." And if you are enjoying our show and you want to support us, the best way to do it is to post about it on social media. As long as your Twitter or LinkedIn posts contain the word Scrimba and podcast, we will find them and you might get a shout-out. If you're feeling super supportive, you can also rate or review us in your podcast app. We also read your reviews right here on the show. And yes, you can also leave us comments on YouTube, but for now, let's go back to the interview with Ryan.

Alex Booker (11:40):
You kind of admitted a few times in this interview to not being particularly tech-savvy at the time. One thing I've noticed about a lot of programming courses is that yeah, they can start from the beginning of programming, but you might not be necessarily that good with computers to begin with and if tech isn't something you've grown up with or worked with a lot, that makes it so much harder. So how did you find it learning to code? Was it quite a challenge or did it come quite naturally to you?

Ryan Talbert (12:04):
Coding for me was a completely new world and it was difficult. I'm not going to lie to you. I remember the first issue I ever had, I actually knew a guy, he was a .NET developer. I did not know what that was at the time. And I remember my first foray into coding was working with HTML and CSS and I could not for the life of me figure out this just positioning issue. And I think it was just padding and margin. And I think I remember reaching out to him and I was like, "This is just the hardest problem in the world. I can't get this CSS to do what I wanted." And I think it ended up him just sending me CSS back that was like padding 20 and that just blew my mind. From there you start to grow. So coding for me was a lot of failure, a lot of hard times, but a lot of good times too.

(12:53):
And that's what I like about JavaScript and the front end specifically is you get that instant feedback that you might not get on the backend of seeing something on a browser. The second I got to see my website show up on a browser, it was like, man, I created this. To me it almost felt like art. So it's like when art gets difficult, it's also fun too because there's a learning curve and you feel kind of special. You got a little website up here and to me it was just was like a drug, man. Yeah, it was difficult, but I loved it.

Alex Booker (13:27):
How did you do at school by the way with more theoretical subjects like maybe maths or chemistry or something where you don't necessarily see the impact of what you're doing, it can lean a bit more theoretical?

Ryan Talbert (13:39):
I've always enjoyed learning and I think that's one of the big insights of being really great at this stuff is just enjoy learning, embrace it, because if you can keep that mindset, really the sky's the limit. So school I was the same way. The only thing I hated was accounting. I cannot stand accounting, I couldn't make that fun. All my accountants out there, I understand why you're switching to coding. Believe me.

Alex Booker (14:03):
I ask, because sometimes with those theoretical things, it's the opposite of JavaScript in the browser. The feedback loop in the browser is so quick. You write a line of code, you see the impact and I think that's usually very rewarding for a new developer, because it is that impact that motivates you to make the next impact and the bigger impact. And it kind of self perpetuates in that way enough that it can be really fun and can keep you motivated in the long term to not just code as a hobby you could say, but to sustain yourself long enough to get a job. How did you start thinking about the transition from learning to feeling job ready?

Ryan Talbert (14:41):
That was a tough mental shift for me, because I was learning because I wanted to take these skills and become an entrepreneur. That was my number one goal. So I actually kind of messed around with coding for probably two or three years before I got my first job simply because I wasn't applying. I was kind of under this impression that I would build the next big thing and I wouldn't need a job.

(15:08):
And one day I was kind of like, you know what? I'm getting pretty good at this stuff. I'm probably job ready. I should probably get out there. I don't remember a specific moment or an aha moment of yeah, I'm job ready, but I just remember it's probably time to start getting paid more than what I was getting paid, doing whatever I was doing at the time and take this from sort of a, I guess it was a hobby at the time or a different venture to more professional. Sort of a moment of curiosity. And then through the process of getting hired, I went on a lot of interviews, talked with a lot of different people, met with a lot of different companies and I was like, "Man, what actually does it take to get hired and are my skill levels there?"

Alex Booker (15:53):
How did you get your first role in tech?

Ryan Talbert (15:55):
So my first role in tech was through a company out in St. Louis called LaunchCode. They actually helped aspiring tech people get jobs. They had a course called LaunchCode 101 that would train you to become a web developer, I believe. And they said I knew too much to actually get in that course. So if you got in it, it was free. But they said, "We have a job placement program that you'd be perfect for." So I went through the job placement program, gave them my resume, and they hooked me up with different companies in St. Louis looking to hire. And I remember when I walked in, they gave me a whiteboard and they're like, "All right, we're going to test your readiness." And I had never coded in front of anybody before at that point. So they gave me this whiteboard and asked me the simplest question, I can't even remember it. Probably something like, how to reverse an array or something, but you can't use a built-in methods, just use for loops and stuff. And I remember sitting there and I couldn't even write a variable. I started shaking.

(16:56):
The guy was watching me and I'm like, "Ah man." And they're like, "All right, go do some coding problems, come back in a week or two." So I went off, I did that, I think I used Edabit and did these little coding problems, got more comfortable. Came back two weeks later, they're like, "This looks good." And I was able to successfully complete what they asked me. So that was kind of like my little entry into the job placement program. So they started floating my resume around for my first job and I landed at a startup. I went through three rounds of interviews and they really liked me and hired me and that was my first gig.

Alex Booker (17:32):
Obviously you got into coding to build your own apps and take that entrepreneurship route. How did it feel to land your first role in tech? I mean on one hand it must've been really exciting, but then I suppose at the same time you have this kind of entrepreneurship route as well. Are they totally opposite or did you a way to combine them in some way?

Ryan Talbert (17:50):
So when I got my first job, funny enough, I was kind of happy, but I didn't want to necessarily work for the company I got hired at long-term. I specifically remember going on the interview and on the third interview I talked to the hiring manager and I go, "Yeah, I don't think this job's for me." And she was like, "No, you're perfect for this job."

Alex Booker (18:11):
Oh, you said that during the interview and they still hired you?

Ryan Talbert (18:13):
And I go, "No, you're not hearing me. I do not want to work here." And she goes, "You're hired, you start on Monday." I took this job and I was like, I'm just going to put it on my resume, work at it for a while. It's a start. Sometimes when you're starting out you can't be super choosy and sometimes you just got to get some words on a resume saying you coded professionally. And it was very difficult. I was the only person in the tech team. There wasn't a mentor. They were kind of using me to build this website and they were willing to pay a cheaper price for a fresh developer, but I had complete creative control. So it was a little scary at the time, I'll put it like that. But sometimes in tech you just got to take what's given to you and get your start that way you can choose down the line. And that's kind of the path I took, because I struggled for a job for a while, because I was applying different places and stuff before I found that job placement program as well.

Alex Booker (19:15):
Around what year was this that you were applying and going through this program?

Ryan Talbert (19:19):
Had to be about 2016, 2017.

Alex Booker (19:22):
I think there are so many challenges and insights that are relatable to people listening that are still very relevant today even though it's a few years later. I know that being perhaps what six, seven years later, the industry and the market are looking a little bit different than they did back then. Obviously your story happened then, but you're very active in the community today. Speaking with new developers, career changes, people aspiring to learn to code and get a job in tech. Once again, I love that framing on your profile around teaching career switches, JavaScript.

(19:54):
And I've noticed with your advice and your posts on LinkedIn, it's not like you're just posting, people are actually commenting and getting involved in the conversation and sharing some of their perspectives and questions and advices and things like that. So I want to segue things a little bit from your story into some of the things happening in the industry today and the challenges new developers are facing. I see that you do things like AMAs and you invite people to do 15-minute catch-ups with you where they can ask questions about whatever. Are there any sort of common challenges or questions that you see pop up in your community that maybe we could dig into a little bit here today?

Ryan Talbert (20:33):
There's so many just common threads you start to see when you do this for a while. And just through writing my book I just released, I've met a lot of people that hit me up just talking about their different challenges and stuff. But no matter, back when I was looking for a job 2016, 2017 or 2024, it's always kind of the same plight. How do I get over this hill of getting my first job? How do I switch careers? What does that actually take? And I think the biggest thing that I try to teach people is you actually have to shift your mindset to the field you're going in. So software developer is being looked at differently than HR or accounting or something else. You're kind of being looked at as are you a team player? How is this person going to be on my team, this being their first job, are you going to be coachable?

(21:30):
Are you a nice person? Do you know how to work in a team? Things like Git, testing your code, things like that. And one of the biggest challenges I see is these people that are breaking into the industry don't know how to properly convey that. And I've met with a lot of people that when you talk to them, you're like, why isn't this person hired yet? Because they have so many things going for them. They've built cool stuff, they're really nice, they're technical skills are rock solid, but you almost have to convey yourself. It takes a bit of marketing to convey that to the other person. And when you're in an interview situation and you're under the gun, it can be really difficult to convey that properly. But when we're just talking one-on-one, no cameras are rolling, nobody's actually actively screening you for a job. I'm like, "Oh man, they're awesome."

(22:22):
So some of the biggest things that I see is they don't understand from the hiring manager's point of view, kind of the linear progression of a job. So I like to break a job down into a line. Close your eyes with me and imagine a straight line. Now we're going to cut that into four different sections. That is your interview process. You have that first section where you're sending out cold information about yourself to the ether. It could be a robot, could be a hiring manager, it could be whoever. And then you have your first interview, which is usually a phone call. You have your second interview, which is usually something technical and then a third interview that could be meeting with leadership or something to see if you're a good fit. That's my kind of quintessential, I'm looking for a job, timeline.

(23:15):
If you think about that kind of timeline, you want to be just as rock solid at every piece of that as possible. So when you're sending out information about yourself, you have to think, I want to get this application to a human as fast as possible. The only piece of information when you're doing a cold application is your resume. So I always tell people you want to have your resume and/or cover letter absolutely as good as possible. So I hate writing resumes. I think they suck. It's a waste of my time. I go hire somebody that's been writing resumes for years. I use Fiverr, I use this guy, I think his name was Harvard CV on Fiverr. He did my resume back then and I said I want to break into this field. So he tailored my resume to break into this field. I think it was $100 back then and he gave me a custom cover letter.

(24:09):
And the thing I learned from doing this so much is a lot of these big companies use ATS screeners that are looking for certain keywords on your resume to even see if you make it to a human's eyes. If you make it to the hiring manager's eyes, will be determined by if you have the right keywords on your resume. So you want to make sure your resume is ATS certified. Now there's ChatGPT, those can help you write resumes and cover letters for sure, but I'd still have a human probably do it, knowing what I know, after using ChatGPT so much. But yeah, you want to get your resume as good as possible, that's going to give you your best foot in the door. And then other tricks to get in front of humans.

(24:51):
When I was desperate for a job, I used to just, I know this is shady and probably gave some web developer a panic attack. You send your information directly to the hiring manager and you call up the company and you say, "Your website's down, it won't let me apply. I'd like to send this to a hiring manager," and you won't believe the amount of callbacks I instantly got, because some real person actually read it versus some robot screening your resume and just throwing it away. And I've actually gotten jobs that way. Just skipping the line, I don't recommend you do this, I'm a good guy. I'd never condone this behavior. But if you really need a job, that might be one of the ways to do it. But that's the first step is getting the information you're sending out as good as possible and then you can start working on the actual interview process. So the next part's the phone screen, you want to have a bunch of answers to commonly asked questions.

(25:45):
The first thing they're probably going to ask you is, so tell me about yourself. And in an active interview situation, these managers are looking for reasons to cut you out basically. They're looking for a reason why should we not hire this person? But if you've made it to a phone screen, they have read your resume probably, and all the information on your resume is safe. So when they ask you to tell them about yourself, I'd start at the bottom of my resume, work my way up and I just keep it to my resume. But there's a lot of different techniques you can use to get answers to these commonly asked questions to pass these interviews. So there's a guy on YouTube, I think he's called, The Companies Expert, that I used to binge-watch his videos on interviewing, because he had such great information.

Alex Booker (26:32):
We can link the channel in the show notes in case people want to check it out.

Ryan Talbert (26:35):
He's been hiring for 20 years and some of his answers to these commonly asked questions were just so spot on and great. I would binge-watch that for phone interviews. It depends on what you're applying for the technical interviews, I used to do this website called Edabit, which would do just these bite-size code problems that you would answer and that really got my mind around coding in front of other people, which was really cool.

Alex Booker (27:01):
That was something you struggled with at first.

Ryan Talbert (27:02):
Yeah, absolutely. I would do three a day and they could probably be done in 30 minutes. You just want to get your mind wrapped around the idea of somebody's going to ask you a problem and you can deliver it to them live. And then again, you're going to want to have your answers planned out for commonly asked questions for that third interview. So you want to be as strong as possible through this what I call this line. And if you're having problems, that's what I would focus on. So if you're not even getting a first interview, your resume's probably bad, your cover letter's not right or you're putting something that's just getting you taken out of the pool for an interview and you need to laser focus on that and just start changing things until you get that first interview and once you get that first interview, if you're not getting past those, you need to up your skill in what you're saying on these interviews.

(27:55):
And then if you get to the technical portion and you're not getting past those, start getting more technical in your daily life. Start doing three problems a day and that is how you kind of climb this hill. And yeah, it sucks. It's hard for everybody. It was difficult for me. I remember one point, not proud of this, but I remember getting rejected and crying in my car, because I was just like, I've went through so many companies that was a third round interview and I thought this was the one. It didn't work out, but the process sucks, but it is all downhill from there. Once you get your first job, it gets a little bit easier on the next one, next one gets a little bit easier and then you can start building a presence on LinkedIn. You can start doing other things and suddenly jobs start coming to you. So you pay for it upfront, but it definitely gets easier downhill.

Alex Booker (28:44):
I love this illustration of a line and the divide you've created and if I'm to kind of reflect on your advice, it's to focus on each part in isolation instead of being overwhelmed by the whole.

Ryan Talbert (28:56):
And that goes for coding too. Human brains for whatever reason are not, and I know my multitaskers out there are going to get pissed off from hearing this, but the human brain cannot focus on that many things at once. So when you're actively trying to get better at something, pick one thing and just burn it to the ground and then move on versus trying to do all six different things at once, you're just going to get not the best result.

Alex Booker (29:22):
I think when you're coming into coding with a bit of a chip on your shoulder because you're changing career or you want to prove something or maybe you're just really determined, you kind of remember these quotes that we've all heard from fighting movies or the covers of books, which is like, be so good they can't ignore you, I might not be the smartest, but I'll work the hardest. And there's so much positive about those ideas.

(29:43):
But I think when you're approaching something as complex as coding and navigating a brand new industry and maybe your first time in a knowledge worker type role at all, taking on too much at once, you quickly go past that point of cognitive overload where you're really going to get overwhelmed. You're not really going to make progress in a linear and stable way, is so, so counterintuitive. And I can say this with so much emphasis, because I know it's been years in the making for me, being ambitious, taking on more than I can chew when actually counterintuitively I need to slow down a little bit to speed up, focus on getting a small win every day and watching that compound over time. Focus on showing up consistently. Focus on solving, really mastering CSS before you move on to JavaScript for example, or really mastering the fundamentals of JavaScript before you move on to React for instance. It applies to both the job hunt as well as the journey lending to code.

Ryan Talbert (30:35):
I 100% agree with that and there's something a little tangential to that, but something I really want to stress. One of the biggest fundamental shifts I've ever had in my life was learning that anything is a skill. The second you believe something is a skill that means you can improve at it. And that's one of the big aha moments I have with people that call me up that are really struggling is some things they don't see as a skill. If we go back to the example, like the resume, right? I'm like, "Let's see your resume," and we look at it, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm only trying to help them, but I'm like, "This is a poor resume. This is what you're putting out into the world."

(31:14):
And I met with one guy recently, it actually blew my mind. He kept track of every rejection that he got. I recommend keeping track of everything you apply for. That way you can call them within three days and pester them till they either tell you to F-off or they give you a job. But he had applied for 6,500 jobs since 2018 and I actually asked him to say the number to me four separate times, because I actually thought I was mishearing him, but he had applied for 6,500 jobs and he had gotten three interviews out of it. That was probably the most demonstrative of the point I just made of like, you are not getting past that initial first step. You have to stop and ask yourself, what am I doing wrong? It takes some critical thinking and you have to place the blame on yourself, but you have to say, "What am I doing wrong?" And his resume, he was using the same resume for all 6,500.

(32:14):
And I was like, "Have you tried changing your resume?" And he is like, "Well no, I paid a guy to do it." And I said, "Well, I'd ask for my money back. I'd pay somebody else to do it at that point." Not knocking the guy, because he's struggling too just like everybody else, but you want to stop it before it gets to that point. And you want to critically reflect like, am I getting this part of JavaScript? Am I getting this part of CSS? Am I getting this part to React? Why am I still struggling with this? What can I do? What can I change? What little 10% change can I make to get better results or break past this plateau? And that's really what I try and focus on with people. If you were to call me up, is like everything is a skill. Measure it, try different things and see if you're getting better results. And once you think everything's a skill, that's where you start getting better. And one of the things to highlight this is I'd ask you, Alex, do you think you're a good driver?

Alex Booker (33:08):
I'm a great driver.

Ryan Talbert (33:09):
Yeah, nobody ever thinks they're a bad driver.

Alex Booker (33:12):
I'm actually a great driver. I can parallel park and everything. Just saying.

Ryan Talbert (33:16):
Alex is a great driver, but for people listening, there's 50% of you out there that think they're great drivers that aren't. Crashes happen all the time. People don't think driving's a skill, but you could hire a driving instructor and actually become a better driver. Alex can't, because he's perfect. I've seen it with my own eyes, but everyone else out there, that is a skill people don't even think of. Everything is a skill. Everything can be made better and you just have to start viewing it that way to actually make it better. Coding included.

Alex Booker (33:47):
I love that mindset shift and I'm thinking of my own examples here. When I think about humor, people think you're kind of born funny or you grow up funny, but comedy and comedic timing, how to land a good joke, that's something you learn. How to tell an amazing charismatic story with a structure and the right pause and emphasis. People say, "I'm not a good storyteller. That can't be me," because they don't recognize it's a skill. All these things. Some are obvious, right, because you studied them in school. But interviewing is definitely, definitely a skill, as is resume writing, as is selling. And sometimes the scale is recognizing what skill you need and the skill you need to get a job oftentimes is to sell and sell yourself.

(34:24):
We're almost out of time here unfortunately, but I did want to touch on one last thing. I really appreciate your transparency in this interview. Not just sharing advice, but also how you felt during your journey, even if it wasn't the best feeling, right? How do you think about managing that emotional side on a journey, learning to code? I don't feel like this has spoken about enough. It is a journey that's often full of little setbacks and challenges and imposter syndrome and self-doubts. And of course there are some wins mixed in there. But then you see all these things in the world right now that you can't control necessarily, such as the layoffs and things that are happening in tech and arguably a fewer number of opportunities for newer developers. And of course the answer is to keep going and to learn and to study. But you can only do that I think if you are in a good emotional place. I wonder how you would reckon with something like that, with the benefit of all your hindsight.

Ryan Talbert (35:19):
There's a couple different ways I've thought of this over the years. First of all, what we're doing is fun. So yeah, it might be difficult, but it's fun. And if you genuinely like coding and people can't keep you away from a keyboard, that makes it easier. So try and find the fun in whatever you're doing. You want to structure your life in a way that you feel like you're winning and you feel like you're growing. And there's a great book on this I read years ago called. The Winner Effect. I forget who it's by, but if you can structure your life in a way to where you feel like you're winning, you keep winning, basically it was a whole premise of the book. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you get more confident and it feels good. And coding can be a hard journey for a lot of people. I think your biggest thing should be, one, it's fun. Two, how can I make this a win for me?

(36:13):
One of the things that I like to do is how can you make it a win realistically for the skill level you're at? So if you're just getting started and you want to create the next big app that makes you a billionaire, that's a tough challenge to bite off. And 99.999% of the time, if that is your goal, you're not going to win and you're not going to be happy. So if you're brand new to coding, maybe a win for you is I got out on my computer and maybe I use Scrimba or maybe I use something to code for 20 minutes a day. And if you code for 20 minutes a day, you are a freaking rockstar and you just won the day, go celebrate it. Go get some sun. Go get an ice cream, if you're an emotional eater. I'm just kidding, that leads to weight issues. But do something that makes you happy after that.

(37:08):
You just won the day and make these little goals. If I code 20 minutes a day, I did this. If I can make my website do this, I'm a fricking winner. And that's how you start getting those flood of emotions, make them bite-size and make it feel like a win and celebrate it and you'll keep coming back for more. And if you don't hit it, don't worry about it. You didn't hit it that day. Still be tough on the process, but don't be tough on yourself. You have to really structure it to make it a win. And that's kind of how I did it. Everything was so fresh and everything was so new and I was like, "Dude, look how I was a week ago. I didn't even know how to do a try...catch block in JavaScript, for example, but now I do. How freaking cool.

(37:52):
You have to be your biggest cheerleader and that's my advice is make these little bite-sized goals. Sometimes it's tough. Sometimes my goal for the day was to open my laptop and if I did that, I could rest my head at night that I won the day. That's kind of how you have to view it. I think that's the biggest longevity boost I can give a tip for.

Alex Booker (38:13):
I love the way you think about this and I also think we can combine our ideas here a little bit when I said about starting small, because I would like it if those daily wins got more substantial over time as you aim to build momentum. If you're in a rut or maybe you're getting started or whatever, then cracking open the laptop lid, that's a great sort of minimum daily non-negotiable. And by the way, the power of those kind of things, just like if you were to say every day I'm going to turn one page of a book, probably you'll end up turning more than one page, because you kind of find something about it that consumes or interests you. And with coding and deep work, it's sort of the same thing. Sometimes I set a 20-minute timer, not because I think it's a Pomodoro technique or something. I'm just like, right, 20 minutes, that's the minimum. And if I do that and I don't want to do it anymore, I can get up and I can go and I can do something else.

(39:02):
But almost always, if I really enjoy what I'm doing, which I do when it comes to coding especially, I will keep going or I'll get far enough in the problem that I'm like, "Oh, I'll just go a little bit further, then at least I finished it." These are the kind of mind games we play and I think you're absolutely spot on. This is how we build momentum and feel good about ourselves. The better you feel about yourself, the more you feel like a winner as you put it, Ryan. I think the more likely you are to go on and win again is so fascinating to me, because when we talk about learning to code, it's often about the coding skills and then the conversation has evolved in recent years to be about the practical skills as well, like interview skills and things like that. But learning to code is a marathon, not a sprint, and you really have to manage your emotions on the way to success.

Ryan Talbert (39:45):
Absolutely. It is a marathon, and the thing about it too is at the end you'll have learned so many different skills and just ways of motivating yourself and learning quickly that you can take it and really do whatever you want, right? I was just telling you, I wrote a book, I wrote 101 Tips: TypeScript, JavaScript, and React. But yeah, I wrote it and I was like, "I don't know how to write a book." I don't know how to write a book. I'm going to be honest with you, but I want to do it. And I'm like, "How do I do it?" I'm like, "Well, how did I learn to code?" I was like, "Well, I set small achievable goals," so my goal for writing this book was 100 tips, and if I write two tips a day and I considered one tip a page, they were just going to be one pages, I'll be done with this book in 50 days.

(40:33):
So I sat down and I wrote two tips a day. Sometimes those tips flowed out of me. They took 10 minutes, I got to go do whatever I wanted to do that day, and sometimes they took two hours, but I got it done and it felt incredible. Every day I got to close my computer from writing, I was like, I felt accomplished, and it kept me coming back and at the end of the day I wrote a book and I was like, oh my gosh. I used to look at people that wrote books and I was like, "How? How did they do this?" But they probably use that. They sat down, they write a couple pages and maybe over 50 days it grows, maybe over two months, maybe over a year. It's a huge book. That parallels anything you want to learn, and it's just such a good skill to have.

Alex Booker (41:19):
Yeah, it's fascinating, because for me, coding was the first hard, long thing I was ever successful at. But once I did it, I could take those same skills and that same evidence that I could do it and apply that to other things, right? Like the gym, for example, or learning how to make videos or host a podcast. I think it's such a valuable skill to take through life. I do think some people come to coding and they already have that skill, and then they're the ones who are often a little bit quicker at learning to code, because they have these advantages of career switches, but they might not necessarily recognize because they do bring that perspective and that experience from learning something else hard and apply it to programming. But whether that's you and you're listening, just remember that you're not starting from scratch and you do bring these benefits with you.

Ryan Talbert (42:04):
Absolutely.

Alex Booker (42:05):
If you are among the people learning to code or doing something hard like this for the first time, then yeah, look forward because it's an amazing thing to have under your belt. Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the Scrimba Podcast, mate, it's been a pleasure.

Ryan Talbert (42:18):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was a blast. Love the show.

Alex Booker (42:22):
We'll be sure to link your book in the show notes so people can check it out if they want to learn more.

Ryan Talbert (42:22):
Thank you.

Jan Arsenovic (42:29):
That was a Scrimba Podcast. If you made it this far, please subscribe. You can find the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to check out the show notes for Ryan's book and his LinkedIn profile where he's very active. The show is hosted by Alex Booker, I'm Jan, the producer, you can find both of our Twitter handles also in the show notes. As always, keep coding and we'll see you next week.